Welcome today. We have Emily and Adams, who is an author and a lost mom. , will you tell us a little bit about yourself? 

Sure. So I am from Logan, Utah originally.

 We’ve spent a lot of time all over the world. And so I’ve lived in Mexico and India and Paris, France, and my husband and I, , have spent the last several years in Southern Utah. And. And we have four living children and one angel baby. And I just barely in the last couple of years have begun my journey as an author.

And I’m really enjoying, , that creative outlet. Yeah.  Really, it was a form of therapy in a lot of ways after our loss. And it’s just become a real joy for me to be a part of that community. 

  I always ask my guests, the first question is, can you tell us a little bit about your baby’s life? , a lot of times we tell like the story of their death and what happened, but would you share just like a little bit of.

Your baby’s life or maybe any lessons he taught you? Absolutely. 

So we found out we were pregnant with twins and on January of 2016, and our boys were identical.  I won’t go into the whole story of our loss, but in the end,  we delivered Alan healthy and whole, and Aiden was still born.  And. I of course would never wish that experience upon anyone.

, and if I could change it, I would in a heartbeat, but I am really, really grateful for the things that Aiden has taught our family.  Specifically the empathy that he gifted me, the, , broader life perspective, the ability to connect with other people who’ve come through difficult things. , the reality that life is fragile, that knowledge and, , I think it makes me a better mother.

It makes me a better friend, a better human being. And I’m really, really grateful, , that. Going through such a difficult thing. Conversely given me a lot of beautiful gifts along the way. 

 I’m sure he was just adorable. 

 Since they were identical, we know exactly what he would look like because of our little Allen, which is super fun.

So every time we get a family photo dense, we actually have Allen stand. Twice in the photo, like he’ll send them one side and then go to the other side. And, , the photographer kind of fades out his duplicate. , and so it’s really a neat way for us to be like, this is exactly what he would look like at five years old.

And, , and I know that that is something that most lost parents don’t have that, , they can only wonder what they would look like at a certain age. And so for me, that’s a real tender mercy is to be able to be. I know  that’s what he would look like. And he might have a different aura about him then Alan does, but 

that’s really sweet.

Yeah, I think that’s, yeah, it’s such a bittersweet thing. When you have a twin list, when that know. You’ve got that reminder always there. Yeah. 

Yeah. You’re right. It is bittersweet because a lot of times, like when he’s having milestones, , we’ll duplicate him in our mind and there’s, there’s that pain, but also that sweetness.

Yeah. Oh, I love that you do that. I was just looking at your, yeah. I just was seeing those pictures. I think it’s so cute. How you, how you do that anymore. 

Yeah, it’s really special for our family. It is funny how, , some people find it weird. I have some family members who think it’s really strange that we do that, but you know, for us it’s meaningful and it’s a token to him and his life.

And the fact that he still is a very. Real presence and our family, and, , just as important of a member of our family as all of our living family members. So for me, it’s really special. And, you know, I’ve had to come to terms with the fact that not everyone will understand. The things that we do,  to process our loss and that’s okay.

, it doesn’t have to be for anyone else it’s just for us. 

. I love when we can come into kind of like confidence about our choices, about how we’re parenting our child, who isn’t there and  just owning it. So I love that. Okay. So today I invited Emily because. You are a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints as M I .

And I’m doing this series on different religions, different beliefs and how that affects our grief, how it helps maybe some of the challenges that different religions bring up. So I always want to say this. Your opinion, my opinion, your experience, we don’t speak for like an entire church or everyone’s experience, but, , I just really wanted to kinda get your thoughts and share them with, with everyone listening.

So first I wanted to ask. What I mean in your experience, what what’s the doctrine? I guess that our church teaches about babies who passed away during pregnancy, , or as a child, , 

Well, I’m going to pull up right here.  I wanted to make sure I didn’t misquote. , and like you said, this is just our perspectives, but this has also pulled from the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints website.

. And this is teachings from the prophet Joseph. , so I really liked this one. It says parents who lose children in death will receive them in the resurrection just as they laid them down. And it talks specifically about how Joseph Smith was at the funeral of a little two year old girl. And he said a question may be asked, will mothers have their children in.

Yes. Yes. Mothers, you shall have your children for, they shall have eternal life for their debt is paid. Children must rise just as they died. We can their hill, our lovely infants with the same glory, the same loveliness in the celestial glory I am. And it goes on there. Several other quotes, , from different funerals that he attended different bereaved mothers that he talked to.

And, , I really liked. Just the reiteration that he kept saying is that, , we will have these babies, that they are eternally connected to us, that they are part of our families. And that brings me a lot of comfort. , especially initially in the shock of our loss, just the knowledge of eternal families was,  extremely humble.

Yeah, and I love that too.  For anybody who doesn’t know, Joseph Smith is the first prophet who we believe restored the original church of Jesus Christ in our time. , and he lived a life and I looked this up too. It says of the 11 children that he and his wife, Emma had. , only five live to adulthood.

So he had lost six children.  And there’s a lot in there, but I think that that’s really comforting to help me knowing that,  he and his wife understood this so much. And so he thought a lot about. , and asked a lot of questions and prayed and looked for answers, , to what happens to these little ones who die.

So I, I love that too. , and after our daughter was still born, , brought me a lot of comfort, knowing that we would have her and knowing that we would have her as a baby, , and get to raise the baby. 

And that’s something that I think brings a lot of comfort to know that you, you won’t lose that opportunity that you won’t just skip to because in my mind, and this is of course doctrine, according to Emily, but I I’ve had some experiences with our son who passed with Aiden.

, and our interactions with him have not been, , with his spirit as being infantile, but. Uh, vibrant youth as a young man. And so in my mind, our spirits are eternally like at their prime. And so , it’s just been really interesting to, to read up on our doctrine and how, , we believe that we’ll have the opportunity to.

To like start over with them basically from the time that they were lost and raise them from there on out. And that’s a really comforting, beautiful doctrine. 

Yeah. And I think so maybe to go back a little bit  we believe that we lived as spirits before that we need to come here and get a.

, and then we will, , go back and be separated from our body until we’re resurrected and put back together. And I think most, a lot of like Judeo Christian beliefs are pretty similar. , we believe that these spirits have lived and are. Full, , adult spirits, but yeah, same thing that, that they’ll still be able to be raised.

 I think that’s really, really beautiful. , what were maybe some of the challenges? Do you have any challenges as you kind of found answers and direction?  After. Yeah, well, 

from our specific scenario, , where we had one living child and one deceased child, people would say things that were really well intended.

, but didn’t really bring comfort in our situation. So for example, and this was another quote I found as I was doing some research. Cause I was like, where does that come from? And then I was like, oh, it’s right here. And they were talking about.  But essentially there was a quote from Joseph Smith that said that,  children who die were too perfect for this world and that they, , That they were taken to, so they wouldn’t have to experience the degradations of a mortal life.

And I think that is a really comforting statement for a mother who has lost one child. But for me, it was like, well, if Aiden was too perfect for this world, what are you saying about my surviving child? Was he not as perfect was. And so that doctrine for me is not comforting. , because I think that Alan is every bit as precious and, and valued and valued.

As Aiden. So what has brought me a lot of comfort is just the thought that their missions were just different. , that Aiden’s mission was to come and receive his body and returned to his heavenly father and that he has work that he is doing on the other side of the veil. And. Alan’s work with here on this side of the veil with us.

And that has brought me a lot of comfort, just, I mean, we’re all such individuals, even within a family, all my children are so different and all of their missions are so different. And so  rather than pitting, like one’s a valiance or worthiness against the other, just to realize like their life, , missions were different.

, I liked that because yeah, there is some other quotes where he says, you know, we shouldn’t be sad. We should rejoice because they’re in heaven in their hole and they’re happy and they don’t have to deal with what we have to deal with. And I think, again, it’s, it’s something where he was pondering and, or like people might come to that conclusion on their own.

But even though we’re happy that we know where they are, what they’re doing, it doesn’t mean we don’t grieve here on earth. And I see that as a, a problem. Sometimes where we feel like if we’re sad, if we’re struggling that maybe it means we don’t have enough faith or we don’t have an eternal perspective, then what would you say about that?

That’s one of the main themes in my book. , so I, in order to process what we had experienced, I ended up interviewing 50 women about their experiences with grief and it wasn’t just. Loss. It was abuse and infertility and, , mental and physical health challenges. Also all sorts of challenges that caused grief  so I feel like. Sometimes we use that against ourselves. Just like you’re saying that this doctrine of because we know where their spirits are and not their whole and healthy, , that we should there by not grieve.

But as I interviewed these women from my book, I realized that grief is just such a natural step in our progression. And whether it be through, through loss or through, , any other kind of sorrows or difficulties that we face, , that it allows us the opportunity to grow. And that doesn’t mean that it’s shameful or,  or that somehow our faith is weaker or less than others because we grieve.

And also, I think. At a real detrimental belief is that, , that grief is somehow a mile marker of your healing like that. If you’re still , displaying your grieving, especially in any kind of public way that thereby you haven’t healed. And I think that that. Uh, misnomer. I don’t believe that at all.

I think that, , grief continues with us and it takes different shapes and it takes different, , courses in our lives. And that sometimes it’ll be stronger than others.  But the reality is grief is just an expression of deep love  and. The more we allow those feelings, the less power they have over us to in as far as,  in a detrimental way June, I don’t know if I’m articulating this quite right, but I do think that sometimes when people are open with their grief, that others get this misconstrued perception of them, that somehow they are broken still, or they haven’t healed on.

I see grief is just like a lifelong companion for me. Like the it’ll just always be there. And, but I have the power over what form that will take, if it will be a positive influence in my life, or if it’ll be an await. I don’t know if I’m  communicating. Yeah, I like that. And same, like it it’s, it’s a choice.

And it’s a process and it evolves. So, yeah, I love that. , and I wanted to mention one thing before we move on from kind of the doctrine I, something I do love, and you can give me your take on it if you want it’s that we believe that children are innocent and that the atonement has taken care of them.

, until the age of eight, we don’t baptize our children until they’re eight and they’re old enough to understand and make a choice. , and so I think that. Knowing that that is the truth. Like when we have young children or babies who pass that, that they kind of get a straight ticket to, to heaven or I think is comforting and maybe different than some, , what some other religions believe.

So that absolutely right. I have, there’s a in Merona chapter eight, verses eight and nine. Pulling it up right now. This is speaks to the point you just made.

It says. That he was, he was basically Merona was a chapter in I’m sorry, Mara. And I was a prophet and the book of Mormon and he was inquiring of the Lord. What’s the status of children and do they need baptism? And he says in verse eight of Moroni, chapter eight, listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord, and your God behold.

I came into the world not to call the righteous, but sinners to repeat. The whole mean no physician, but they that are sick. Wherefore, little children are whole for, they are not capable of committing sin. Wherefore. The curse of Adam is taken from them in me that it has no power over them. And the law of circumcision is done away in me.

And this is verse nine. And after this manner did the holy ghost manifest the word of God onto me wherefore my beloved son. I know that it is solid mockery before God that you should baptize little children. So in arch. , it goes on and it talks about how little children need no repentance, neither baptism until they’re accountable.

, and so we’ve determined that the age of accountability, as you said, is age eight. So that really is a comforting doctrine that all children and eight and younger are free of the transgressions of Adam and Eve. And they are whole, they need no repentance. I really love that. 

, let’s talk a little bit about the culture.

So in our culture, like one of the things is. That we value families, right. We value babies. , we talk a lot about, , bringing these little spirits here to earth and that can be a good thing. It also be a difficult thing. So what, what are some of the things that have been maybe good or challenging with.

Kind of our church culture. 

Hmm. That’s a great question. And my mind instantly goes to the women that I interviewed and dear friends who have struggled with infertility, , and how with our emphasis on motherhood being divine,  that can cause a lot of pain for women who are unable to bear. And especially women who get pregnant and then have loss after loss, after loss.

And I think that the culture, although this is never intended, can then. , because we put such a large emphasis on the family. It can often lead those women feeling less than, , and as if they are not able to fulfill their full creation because they aren’t able to be mothers. And I think that that’s a real tragedy in our community.

And unlike I said, I don’t think anyone ever intentionally continues that message or perpetrates that message. , But for a lot of women, I think end up feeling like they don’t know where their places in the church, if they don’t have a family. And that even applies to our sisters who are never married and never have the opportunity to have children.

And so those, those situations I think can be really painful. , but of course the reality is. All of us are a value and of worth. And just as I was mentioning earlier, Alan and Aiden’s missions are different. And so is every women’s mission is different. Even women who have families like, and our all mothers, all of our missions look different.

And, and I think we have to take the cards that have been handed to us. And make the best I, and I know that that for someone heavy in their grief, that can sound really pandering to be just like, just deal with it, make the best of your situation. Then that’s not what I’m saying at all. It’s just like, I think you get to a point where you, uh, as cliche as that saying has become, it really is true that you can choose to become bitter or better.

And. And so whether we’re able to have children or whether we have children and we lose them and we can choose the path that we’re going to follow because of those losses or because of those challenges. 

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I think, , going along with what you said, , we want to have families, but I think there is kind of that emphasis on big families, which is.

Partly cultural, partly doctrine lake. We really do believe it’s a good thing to have lots of children. So I think that can be an issue too. When you see someone with one or two children, there may be a little bit of, you know, people wondering why, , or a little bit of judgment, but hopefully we can all just kind of focus on ourselves and.

Yeah. You know, worry about. And when I see someone with a small family, I, you know, because of what we’ve been through, you probably say, yeah, I bet there’s something going on that we don’t know either that situation they’ve made or it’s something that isn’t a true 

related or unrelated or yeah. Are, uh, I think you’re right.

I think there might be this little glimmer in our minds, like, oh, I wonder why they only have. But I think that’s one of the gifts of having had a loss or having struggled with infertility is, is having that compassion then realizing that you might not have been an option to have more, or in fact, sometimes I’m like, man, that would be so nice to just have not.

It gets so complicated. The more children you have, but 

yeah, and I don’t think you need to feel guilty for thinking that I think that’s something that maybe, you know, like I have six living children and I have two babies that we lost and it’s still a lot. I’m still like, wow, this is.

I have a lot of kids and I wish I had the others, you know, but I don’t have to feel guilty. So for anyone who does have like a big family or as many kids as, you know, they can handle and they have some that aren’t there. I think it’s okay to be overwhelmed with it on some days. Cause it’s hard. All right.

You and I really love one of the things that Jody Moore always says is like, you choose your hard, right? And so. It can be hard either way. It can be hard to only have one child and feel like, oh man, I wish we could have more, that our kid could have siblings. And then it’s also hard to have a large family and balance all those needs.

And so I think that the key is that we look at everyone’s situation with compassion and, uh, and then really just don’t spend so much time focusing on other situations and just hone in on your own and how you can be the best. , human being in your own situation rather than comparing to others or judging others.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think it’s getting better. I feel like there’s more awareness and it’s getting better. And I mean, and it’s not just a church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints problem. I think it’s just, when, anytime you have a group of humans together, like it’s the same, you know, we’re all just going to.

I want to know what’s going on with each other and sometimes it doesn’t come across really well. Okay. So another question I have is,  what are some of the times for you, you can share your experience. I can share some of mine, but as a member of this church, like, what are some of the times, or maybe, , a little more challenging or someone might need support or, , just things that stood out to you.

Like, for example, baby blessings, 

 I think six weeks after Lauren had passed away, we went to my in-laws, , congregation and there was a baby blessing and it just hit like a brick wall. They should have been hurt. Like this would have been that weekly blessed her. Right. You know? And so things like that, , maybe just again, in your experience or things you’ve seen or heard other people say, well, I 

think,  if we’re talking specifically about members of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, some painful milestones will be things like, like you said, baby blessings entering nursery, entering primary Sunbeam.

The youngest age group for the three-year-olds to start getting Sunday school lessons baptisms at age eight, uh, priesthood ordination going into young. Women’s all those milestones that your child would have had. Those are all opportunities to feel triggered and to feel mournful that, that your child is not here to have those experiences.

, for us specifically, Something that was really challenging for our situation was, , I was given, so in our church, we, , believe that the men who hold the priesthood have the opportunity to give priesthood blessing. And those blessings can be really any time the person is in need. So sometimes our, , priesthood holders in our homes, our fathers or husbands, they, , might give blessings of comfort of healing and of when a child is starting a new school year.

So there’s, there’s lots of opportunities to give those blessings. And we believe that then the Lord speaks through. Are, , priesthood holder who is giving the blessing and gifts. So they’re basically acting as a mouthpiece for the Lord. And so that’s why it’s really important for the men to be living worthy of their priesthood, but trying their hardest to keep God’s commandments so that they can be worthy to be, his mouthpiece.

And I was given a priesthood blessing, , early on in our pregnancy. By my husband who was speaking the blessing. And my father, I could tell really early on this is before it was, confirmed by any doctors that I just had a premonition that something was wrong with the pregnancy. And so I went to them and asked for a blessing because I was feeling so anxious.

, and I was hoping that what they would say would be. Something along the lines of this, pregnancy’s going to be great. The babies are going to be fine. You’re going to be fine. And like, just put me at ease and give me a sense of peace. However, the words that my husband said was that this was going to be a really difficult pregnancy and that the road was going to be very rough.

And bumpy and there would be challenging and difficult decisions to be made, but here was the kicker in the end, he said the babies will arrive whole and healthy. And so I really clung to those words throughout the rest of my pregnancy. And I felt like. I can go through Rocky. I can go through all the challenges and, and sure enough, I mean, it was rough.

We had a, , a laser ablation surgery in LA at 25 weeks to try. And anyway, there was a whole, there was many difficult health challenges for the babies and, , I really clung to that promise that the babies would arrive whole and healthy. And it was like a mantra in my brain. Anytime we’d have to go in for another procedure, I would say whole and healthy whole and healthy, the babies are going to come home and healthy.

So then in the end we made it all the way to our, , scheduled C-section. And when we went in that morning and we discovered the Aiden’s heart had stopped beating and. I had this moment where I realized I could either reject my faith or cling to it because I think the natural response was clearly, this must all be false because they’re not both whole unhealthy as promised.

And so if the pro, if the blessing was, was void, then that means. My faith is void, you know, and I am, I had this very distinct moment where I chose to believe, , instead of reject my faith and I chose to view that blessing in an eternal perspective. So instead of, , thinking that the babies had to arrive whole and.

In this mortal life that our spirits are eternal. And of course my son is whole and healthy, just not on this side of the veil. And  that brought me a lot of comfort and helped me realize that. Sometimes we take these blessings, , in a different way than our heavenly father and Tenzin, uh, and that’s not his fault.

Like I think sometimes we can be like, but you promised me that they would both come. And, and then I just had to realize, like, my understanding is so finite. , and once I was able to accept that my son is whole on the other side, that, that. As when I started to make progress in my healing and and come to terms with, uh, with his loss.

Yeah. And thank you for sharing that that’s really special. And I think that’s. It’s so important, right? Like we always have choices in our beliefs and how we interpret them. And,  I had a similar thing after Lauren passed. It was kind of like, I could have believed everything went wrong, just like this series of events that led up to her, not making it.

, I could have believed that everything went wrong or I could have believed, you know, this is, this was the plan for her life. And if any of those things would have happened, like I would have. Intervened. Like we would have tried to change that or, or done something differently. So, in some ways just choosing that to look at it that way.

And I think it’s really difficult for people who,  are not people of faith to accept that it can be really, , it can seem very simplistic, very. , almost like we’re burying our head in the sand of our faith and just, I like the image I get sometimes as like somebody covering their ears and being like, blah-blah-blah like, yeah, but for me, , all I can go on, right?

Cause faith, the whole, uh, definition of faith, right. Is, is having an, a belief in something that you cannot see. I am and choosing to believe in something that you cannot. And so for me, all I can go off of is how it makes me feel. And  , when I entertained the thought that this is all bogus, that my faith is my faith is just like a bandaid that we put on painful situations so that we can get through it.

That felt very dark and heavy and choosing to believe that, , there was purpose in this, , and that God had a plan for us and our child that was liberating and peaceful and freeing. , and so all I can go off of is the fruits that it creates in my life. So faith for me, Breeds a fruit of positivity of love and of outreach to others who are experienced similarly who experienced similar trauma.

Whereas choosing to believe that it was all for, not that it, there was no purpose in it. That for me would lead me to places of darkness and hopelessness. So. I don’t think it really matters your faith tradition. I don’t think your religious experience and like there’s so many different religious traditions.

But I think that we all hold in common that we choose. To believe in something better than what we’re experiencing right now. If that makes sense. 

Yeah. Something higher that we don’t understand. Yeah. And I, I love that. And as you’re speaking, I just thought of kind of my last question maybe to, to finish out, but something I love is that we do believe that we.

Have the right and the privilege to have personal revelation for ourselves, that we have a personal experience with her personal relationship with our father in heaven, with our savior and with the holy spirit that can guide us in comfort us. So maybe how has. That relationship or those relationships.

And that’s that holy spirit guiding you. How has that helped you through this? Oh, I 

love that question. It’s, it’s made all the difference, right? Because I feel like the more I lean into my trust in the Lord, the more evidence I gain that he is. And that he is aware of me and my pain and my journey.

 Specifically in this situation, my loss journey. . So another experience I’d love to share with you is that after. Aiden past, we actually declined the C-section at that point because Alan was still thriving. And so we had thought that that day we would be going and welcoming our sons and that they’d be in the the NICU.

And instead we went home still pregnant and knowing that my son Allen was whole inside of me and doing well, and that Aiden was still. And I was going to be stillborn and that was extremely painful. And I mean, confusing for our older children challenge just challenging all around, but we got home and I had made this very conscious decision in the hospital that I would turn to my heavenly father instead of away from him in this experience.

So one of the first things we did is My husband and I have a habit of reading companion, scripture studies together everyday. So we, we had left off the night before in the new Testament. We were reading in Peter. And so we just picked up where we had left off because we knew we needed to turn to the Lord, but we didn’t quite know what.

What the scriptures would hold for us, if that makes sense or what the Lord wanted to communicate with us. And we didn’t really know where to turn. So we just picked up from where we left off and I’m going to hurry and pull this up.  So this is in first Peter chapter one, verse six. So this is as we had just picked up where we left off and it said wherein you greatly rejoice though. Now for a season, if need be year in heaviness, through manifold temptations that the trial of. Being more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tried with fire might be found under praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

Now in this particular burst. So our son Aiden’s name means a little fire. And so as we read through and we read that part where it said, though it be tried with. And then at that point, our sons had not been delivered, so they’re still inside me and we’ve seen all these ultrasounds, but we’ve never seen them or held them.

You know what I mean? And so verse eight said whom having not seen ye love

anyway, and as it goes on, it just talks about. Through our trials, we will come to know Jesus Christ. And I felt as you were talking about the importance of personal revelation, that that was the Lord’s way of wrapping his arms around this and comforting us in the midst of. The greatest heartache that we’ve ever known, and

I can testify that we have had numerous experiences in the last, I can’t believe it, but it’s been five years since he passed and we have had so many experiences. That are deeply personal and regulatory to us. And that might not be significant to other people, but testify to us again and again, that our son lives that he is still part of our family and that he loves us, that he’s there for us when he can be.

And I don’t believe that he used. Just hanging around all the time. Like just hovering, waiting for whenever I need them. But I do believe that he’s here and when we need him most, and I am so grateful to a loving heavenly father who makes that possible and who makes and our savior Jesus Christ, who makes resurrection possible so that we will literally in the flesh be reunited with him in the end and, and be an eternal family.

And, and. That knowledge brings me incredible peace, and I look forward to the day when I can be with all my children. Again, 

me too. Thank you so much for your sharing those things that are obviously so close to your heart. And I know, I feel, yeah, there’s a lot of comfort and peace listening to you. So I hope that everyone listening can feel that today.

Would you just share a little bit like a tiny bit more about your book and where people can find you and find your book? Sure. 

And so my book is called, is there no other way? And the subtitle is exploring growth through grief. 

So it started out as a way for me to just write about our experience and then I ended. Feeling like all of these women were coming out of the woodwork after we had our loss. And, and it was almost like, because we had experienced great loss that then they felt free to share their great. And I ended up interviewing 50 women about their experiences with sorrow.

And then I compiled those. I wanted the book to be really bite sized, because I feel like when you’re in the middle of your grief, it’s really hard to get through content at all. And I. So I wanted it to be something that you could pick up and get through in a couple of days.

So the women’s stories  they’re just little vignettes and they are intermingled with our experiences and some thought work. I was able to interview Jody Moore and talk about our decisions of, of how. Handle our thoughts and our loss. And so the book moves through a process of taking you from victim to survivor, to contributor and, and how to, how to get from a space of, of devastation to being able to turn around and lift the next person on, on their journey because of your pain and not inspired.

And you can find it. It’s on all the things, all the places, Amazon desert book, Barnes, and noble. I was able to record an audio version of it this last year. So it’s on audible now and it’s been fantastic because it’s brought so many good people into my life. And I’m really, really grateful that I had the chance to write it right now.

I’m working on a children’s book and. Illustrated book about grief for children to help them understand loss a little better. 

That’s amazing. , where do you mostly hang out 

Yes. So www.author, Emily on adams.com and Instagram handle is at author, Emily on Adams and Facebook page as well. 

Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing.

I really, really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me. It was really a pleasure to visit.