You are currently viewing Episode 26 – Special Episode: Grief Through a Child’s Eyes

Episode 26 – Special Episode: Grief Through a Child’s Eyes

You won’t want to miss this one. Today we have some special guests…my kids! They were brave enough to come on the podcast to share their experiences and the things they’ve learned after losing two siblings. Lauren at 39.5 weeks in 2013 and River at 14 weeks in 2016.

It’s normal to worry about seeing your kids go through something hard, and that’s why I wanted to share a child’s perspective on miscarriage, stillbirth and life after loss with you all today.

If you have any questions, let me know here:

If you would like to share your baby’s story on the podcast, submit here:

For a free 30 minute session, click here to schedule:

Music provided by ZingDog / Pond5

Photo by Amy Watson


Welcome to episode 26. I am really excited to have some special guests today. It is my own children who are being brave enough to come on the podcast and share their experience with the loss of their siblings and just tell us a little bit about what they remember about those times, and also how it affects ’em now.

So I’m really grateful to them. We are going to jump right in. First up, we have my son. He is six years old. Can you tell me a little bit about Lauren? My sister Lauren and she lives in heaven. And what happened to Lauren? She died in my mom’s tummy. And how do you feel when you think about Lauren and River?

I feel kind of sad. Well, I think he’s a great example of how children process grief. A little different than we do, although I don’t know if he grieves in the same way that we do. He was born a year after Lauren died and when River died, he was probably about two years old, and so he knows that he has siblings who died.

We talk about them. We have their stuff up all over and he often asks questions, but. Overall, he’s just a six year old boy running around the world doing his thing, and I’ve never personally, like I call him my BA rainbow baby, but we’ve never really expressed that to him in any way of his connection with Lauren and all of that.

And maybe when he’s older, but for now, he just. Yeah, he just lives his life and he asks questions and he is processing it in his own way as he grows, and it’s definitely something we’re super open about. Yeah, so next is my daughter who is 10, almost 11. Her birthday’s coming up and she was about three when Lauren passed away, and she was my little sidekick and she came to every single appointment and.

She just was so, so excited to have a baby sister and when she died it was pretty rough on her. Um, she was the sweetest little thing when we went to the hospital. She just could not get enough of holding her baby sister. She just wanted to hold her. She wanted her turn. Anytime we passed Lauren to another person, she just wanted her baby sister back, and it was really tough.

Um, not having her be able to play with her little sister. And also now sometimes I’ll still think about what our family dynamic would be if we had a seven year old, but we just don’t know what that would be like. Maybe they would drive each other crazy, I’m not sure. But she’s being really brave here and she wants to answer a few questions for you guys.

Tell us a little bit about what you remember about when Lauren passed away. Um, I remember, um, when we were in the hospital, I was so excited to get to hold her and I just wanted to see her and I was, um, wondering why she was so still, but I still loved her and I still wanted to be close to her and just have her as a sister.

So what’s been hard for you? Losing a sister and then another baby? Um, it was kind of, it was hard ’cause I always wanted someone to do stuff with, ’cause um, my older sisters wouldn’t really let me do stuff with them, so I was so excited to have. Some siblings that I could actually do stuff with and have fun with.

And when we lost Lauren, I was really sad and I didn’t know what I should feel like. And then when River died, I, I was sad because I had lost two of the siblings that I could have been really close friends with and I could have had such fun with. Yeah. What do you like that we do for the babies or for Lauren or for River?

Um, I like, I liked when we would make diapers for teeny tears for those other people who have also lost a baby or a sibling or something like that. And, I also, we have these shadow boxes in our living room, one for River and one for Lauren. And I love to just look at them whenever I am thinking about Lauren or River.

Okay. And what would you tell another kid who maybe has lost a baby brother or baby sister? Do you have any advice? Um, so I think if you have. Um, someone you can talk to, then you should talk to them because if you find someone who understands what’s going through your mind, then it really helps. I have my sister who we talk about stuff sometimes and we go out and we go like on our trampoline, or we go in her room and we just talk about stuff.

And we talk about what’s been on our chests, and I think that’s a good way of kind of helping you go over the things that are making you sad or upset. Okay, awesome. And one last question. Do you like to include Lo River? Like when people ask you. How many brothers and sisters do you have or do you change your mind, or how do you usually talk about our family?

I usually include them because I want them to still be included and I want them to still be a part of our family even though they aren’t here with us. And I just like thinking about them like that, and I used to like talk about it whenever I could. Yeah. Well, thank you. All right. My next kiddo is 13 now.

She was about six when Lauren died. And nine when we lost River. And she’s processed it in her own way. And I think she really expresses her emotions really well, even though she’s afraid that she might get emotional here. I know that we’re all okay with that. So we’ll get started. Tell me just a little bit of what you remember about when Lauren died.

Um, I. I think the thing that I probably remember the most is when our dad sat us down in our couch, in our front room and he told us that,

um, something went wrong and that mom’s baby wasn’t gonna,

it’s okay. I wasn’t alive and that’s probably what I remember most. ’cause I was just really shocked and like I was trying not to cry on the couch ’cause I would interrupt everything. And so I went into the basement and I just kind of sat in a bowl for like an hour and it was really tough. Um, and I was worried about mom a little bit too.

And I was really disappointed ’cause I really wanted a little sister. That was not very fun. Yeah. And I know that’s still hard today, right? Yeah. Because when we had our little Rainbow boys, she didn’t get a sister. So that’s been, that was kind of tough on her. She was a little disappointed. She was team girl.

For sure. All right. So just tell us a little bit what has helped you, what’s been something that has been good for you? Um, well, in the springtime they do this charity walk thing for like angel babies. It’s up in a big garden up in, uh, the capital of our state, and it’s got like, All these gardens from like places across the world.

And I really like that ’cause I like Greek mythology and Greece and stuff. And they had a little Greek pavilion and I just walked around the whole time. They also had this thing where we’d walk around the whole garden on the path. It was really pretty and nice. And then we got a cookie, which was good too.

And they read all the names of the babies that were, um, Deceased and then they let Doves fly and they let him out of a cage. And that was really fun. Well, it wasn’t fun, but you know, um, yeah, that really helped me a lot. Yeah. It’s good to get together with other people who understand, right? Yeah. All right.

Now we have my two biggest girls. They are, 15 and almost 17. And so how old were you? 10 and eight when Lauren died, and then 11 and 13 when we lost River. So they’re gonna tell us a little bit about. What they remember and then we’re just gonna hopefully be able to have a conversation here. We’re all around one microphone and squeezed together.

So anyways, they’re gonna tell us a little bit of their experience and kind of their experience then and how it is now. So I was around eight when Lauren died, and honestly, I don’t remember much of the exact details. I remember. We got stuffed animals and people gave us food and that was nice. But I remember crying a lot.

It was really sad for me. Um, since I was so little, I don’t really remember that much. And it being like eight years, it’s kind of weird to think about ’cause she still feels like a little baby to me. I don’t know. All right. And then I’ll go next. So I, we lost River when I was 13 and I remember, I remember when mom told us, I remember like, she just showed us a picture of ultrasound.

My siblings couldn’t figure out, they’re like, oh, is that ultrasound of when you were little mom? And I’m like, oh my gosh, we’re having another baby. It took them a minute, but I figured it out first and then I remember it felt like really, really short after like. River was just gone. And I remember, so we had my grandparents come down and I knew that for some reason mom had to go into the hospital and I was kind of confused.

And I just remember it took a long time and I was like, where’s my mom? And none of the adults would really tell me anything. And I’m like, oh, I’ll make my mom some cake and some food. And I asked like, oh, can I make my mom a cake? But like, she might not be able to eat stuff right now. We might, we don’t know when you’re gonna see her.

And they were just, Everyone was just acting really weird and I remember just being so annoyed. I’m like, this is my mother we’re talking about. Please stop trying to hide stuff from me. That’s something I remember and I was really scared for my mom, obviously. ’cause you know, you go worst case scenario usually when no one’s telling you things.

So I was stressed out and I was sad we lost the baby. I knew my grandparents were sad. We were all sad. But it was also like, to me, I don’t know the exact timeline, but it felt like. In my brain. It was like two weeks between we found out my mom was pregnant and then nothing. And so I just remember being really confused.

I remember just being a little bit annoyed, and I remember when mom told us that we lost the baby. Like that exact moment, like I felt just awful and so scared. And then I didn’t feel like anything anymore like. Like my siblings were various ranges of like upset and confused and things, and I just remember feeling nothing like at all.

And then again later in my head when we actually had to like have mom go to the hospital. I just remember thinking, this is so annoying. Why won’t they tell me anything? I want my mom to be okay. I wanna know what’s happening and like all the stuff I’ve learned. Has been like fairly recently. I didn’t get much info about what actually happened, but I don’t know.

It was different because for Lauren I was so little, but she was so much farther along. Like we had more time to realize like we’re having a baby. Like we had the nursery set up, we drew pictures for Lauren, we had time, and River was just so little. It was just kind of like we’d barely gotten used to the idea that mom was a little bit pregnant.

And then it just felt like the baby just disappeared pretty much. And yeah. Yeah. So I had a D N C with River and it did not go really well, and so I ended up having to stay in the hospital and get some extra blood and all kinds of good things. So, um, that’s why when we went in, the doctor said it would be 20 minutes and it ended up being, A little longer than that, so, yeah.

And maybe can you, do you have anything to say about the difference? Was it kind of the same for you? Yeah, it was the same. Where like with Lauren, we knew there was gonna be a girl. A baby girl that with River, we were expecting like a gender and stuff, but we didn’t ever get a gender at all. So that was kinda weird.

And. Yeah, I know it felt like, well, because, um, we knew that Lauren was pregnant with Lauren, like even af like after Lauren passed away, we still have a better formed idea, like something, I don’t even know where it came from, but like, we used to make mes, you know how when we have, we, we make mes, we decided her favorite.

Lauren’s favorite color was purple. Like we just decided, and every single, we drew pictures and things. Every picture, she was wearing purple, had purple flowers. When she was a me, she had a purple shirt on and we just kind of like decided it. But river, it’s harder because again, like we didn’t get used to the idea that we were having the baby before it was gone.

We don’t have a gender, so it just, it just feels different. Does that like. Bother you or anything, thinking like maybe how different the grief was from Lauren to River. Have you ever, like, do you ever compare it or is that not something that you really do? Um, I don’t really compare the grief because again, it was a different kind of thing for the both of them.

So the situation was different. So I don’t really compare them. To each other, but they were different. Yeah. I don’t really compare them. ’cause again, like it was my, our brains were in a totally different place. It went, like with, um, Lauren, it was kind of the grief of we almost had her and then we didn’t, and river it was kind of like a missed opportunity.

I think that’s like the best way to put it. Like, It was an opportunity for us to have a baby and have like our mom be pregnant and to get ready the nursery and everything. We just missed that entire opportunity. And so, yeah, like she said, it’s just totally different and I’m not upset about it ’cause there’s two very different situations and there’s a lot of different stuff going on.

Even though both the things were a loss of a little baby that. They were just so different. I’m not upset that the grief was different. So how do you guys keep them as part of your life? Like what is it like including them or not including them? It’s okay. Got a little emotional over here and that’s okay.

’cause emotions are good. But yeah, like how do you incorporate them, I guess, into your life right now? Or maybe how did you before, just tell us a little bit about that. So something that I, I remember even asking my mom about it was hard because when people would ask how many siblings you have in your family, like, I remember that was kind of like, you know, first day of school question.

I remember not being sure what to say because I. Like back then we lived in a tiny town, so like some people knew and some people were like family friends and other people were like, I’ve only seen you around with this many kids. Why are you saying there’s like an extra one? And I don’t even remember. I switched back and forth and people got really confused.

But, um, pretty much what I do now is like if I’m just like, if it’s a new person, they’re. Ward, they’re like, oh, how many kids do you have in your family? Then I just, I don’t include the two babies, but I know that they’re still there. And if I have close friends and they ask like, what are those like, we have little shadow boxes in our house where we have little like things for Lauren River.

If they ask about them, I explain it like, Whenever we take pictures for like Christmas, we have a stalking for Lauren and River and like I’m not afraid to talk about it. They’re very much part of our family and they’re just like our angels. But I’m not gonna be like, hi person. I just met. We have this many kids, but here’s our sob story.

Like, like I know that they’re in our family and for me, I’m comfortable not saying them when I meet new people because. I feel like that’s not just including them, I feel like it’s just saving people. I am not that close with, with some confusion. No, no, it’s a lot. It’s a lot the same for me. ’cause like, again, the question of how many siblings do you have?

Is it a weird question because, you know, I feel like I have a thousand siblings at this point. I already do. And then to add Lauren and River on top of it, I just say I have a lot. And then, My friends, I pretty sure they know about Lord and River. I’m not sure. I’ll have to ask, but, um, I don’t know. I’m not really scared to talk about it like they did exist and, you know, there are siblings and so like, I don’t really include them when I say my numbers, if I say specific numbers, but I know that.

Yeah, they’re there. Yeah, usually she just, I’m usually with her and she just says a lot. Like she doesn’t even go with the numbers. She just says a lot. Yeah, I do that too. I say I have a bunch of kids, so there’s a lot of them, so I do that for sure. So why don’t you guys just talk for a minute about what helps you, like when you are maybe sad about it, what helps you now, and then maybe what helped you at a little bit closer to.

During the loss. Um, so I, I just cry a lot and that’s what I do. I like crying. It’s, it’s just what I do and it’s, I like crying. It kind of helps to get over it, I guess. So right now, crying is great. Um, but I don’t know, I just, I cried a lot and then like, I’m not sad about it.

But like I cry, it’s just what happens. And like I love that I’m crying right now and I can’t talk straight, but I just, I cry and that’s how I deal with with it. So something that helped me was when we were in the room, like right after we held Lauren, ’cause we were able to hold her, we got these little stuffed rabbits.

I named mine Fluffy and like we also got a little cute card. I don’t even remember what it said on it, but it had like a little like plasticy fake flower. And I remember when we got home, I went to the bathroom and got like the crappy elastic hairbands and like, Brushed, I named the rabbit fluffy. I brushed Fluffy’s hair and like did as much of a hairdo as you can do on a stuffed animal rabbit.

And I just like, that helped me. Like it was kind of like taking care of like a little stuffed animal was kind of like as close as I could get in my little 10 year old self. I remember that helped me. And right now, like again, it’s. For us, it’s nice. Like, for example, on um, when Lauren would’ve started kindergarten, my mom bought her little backpack and it’s kind of just like she use it.

She usually keeps at the top of the closet, but it’s nice to know that they’re kind of around. Like for me, that’s really nice that we all know. I. That like they happened and that they’re around and like kind of able to have a little bit of just having them and that’s been really good. My rabbit’s name is fuzzy.

Okay, so what would you guys tell somebody, maybe another kid would, how would you maybe explain. What going through this has been like, or maybe a little bit of advice for another kid or a teenager who has lost a baby brother or sister. So something for me was, I was 10, so I like, I remember it all, but it’s like you’re kind of flipping through a flip book.

Like some people say they remember every moment, but I can just like remember images of like, My sister talked about earlier, apparently, like just sitting with my dad on the bed when he told her. And I remember going to the hospital room. I remember like walking with my grandparents. I remember going to our little grocery store to get flowers.

And again, it was a small town and so everyone knew my mom was pregnant, so they saw us at the store getting flowers. So of course they’re like, oh my gosh, your mom had her baby. I’m so excited. And we just like started crying in the middle of this grocery store. ’cause we’re like, Uh, we didn’t know how to react, so we kind of just like, thanks.

We’re excited. Even though that’s the opposite of the emotion we’re feeling. Um, like right now, it’s been, yeah, like my sister said, it’s been so long. It’s weird, but I just have those little snapshots of how it felt. And I just remember, like, I remember thinking, oh, my sister’s crying a lot. Like I should cry.

Like, this is sad. I should like, I was sad, but it was like, I almost like wanted to be sad because that’s what was expected of me. They’re like, oh my gosh, you must be so sad and upset and you must do all this, this and this. And I kind of just like, oh, that’s how you’re supposed to act. ’cause I didn’t know.

And it’s okay to be sad and to grieve any way you want. Like I love going to the cemetery and you put down little like. Signs and like cute decorations on her grave, and I love doing that. And I love like showing off our adorable, pure white stalkings next to our colorful ones that we have our angel babies and like you’re just allowed to grieve and deal with it in any way you want.

There’s not really any rules or like regulations or ways you’re supposed to do it. ’cause everyone’s totally different. Like each of our sisters, we all reacted so differently and not only because of our ages, but because of our personality and like, Yeah. Again, like even just the difference between Lauren and River, like Lauren, I was super sad river.

Like I said before, I kind of just like went into shock and didn’t feel anything. And both of those are okay. They’re both what happened and I’ve learned how to deal with both of them. Um, so for me, uh, I can’t, so after I, it was a while after River died. But one of my friends lost a sibling. Um, and so we weren’t really close, but I knew of her, especially since we have the same name and we were able to just like talk and cry with each other and it’s like really nice to know we can talk to each other.

Yeah, for sure. Finding. People who understand. She came and helped me visit a family that I was able to serve in the hospital when they lost their baby, and she was really brave and yeah, just cried with them because that’s what they needed. They needed to just cry, and so we did that. All right. Is there anything that you would tell a parent who’s maybe worried about.

How this is gonna affect their kid and as they grow up and, and different things. And what maybe some of the things that we did that helped you, or just basically anything you would tell a parent about what it’s, I guess, what it’s like being a kid and going through it and how they can help their kids. I don’t know.

So it’s a really weird situation because like you see that your parents are sad and you see that your grandparents are sad and maybe you have like a funeral for the baby or maybe you don’t like, there’s all kinds of different circumstances, but like I. Talked about before, like a lot of it, like a, you’re sad about how you’re feeling and you’re confused about how you’re feeling.

It’s a lot, but you also, like, there was a lot of me that even though I was just little, I wanted to like take care of my parents, but I didn’t know how to do that. And I’d see like my mom would get upset and I’d be confused and like I didn’t know how to help. And so like, Just letting, like our mom was really good at giving us ways to deal with it.

Like we did. We sew and we help and we make little baby molds of hands and feet. And it’s like, for me, it’s just really good to help other people and to be able to talk about it and we’re really, really open about it. Like that’s something that’s important for me is again, we have like, All our bright, colorful, trained ballerina, Christmas stockings, and we have two really pretty white ones and we have like our main family photo album in the front room, but like over by our kitchen we have.

Little, um, shadow boxes with stuff for Lo River. And so just kind of keeping them around has been really good for me. And not acting like it didn’t happen, but also not treating it like, like, yes, it was sad, but it’s not. Like so, so, so terrible. I don’t know. I’m trying to find a good way to like explain it.

Like yes, it was really sad and it was really awful, but it wasn’t like the end of the world. I think one thing that we do that kind of helps is celebrate like again, kindergarten and their birthdays. ’cause it’s fun to go up in the mountains and just like eat cupcakes for their birthdays and. You know, just remember them and like it’s again, it’s weird that they’re like so old and they’re just like, Lauren’s five in my head, she’s always just been like a little big kid.

And I don’t know, river’s just, it’s, again, it’s weird with River ’cause we didn’t like, Imagine as much with River ’cause we didn’t know a gender and that really helps with it. But still, we celebrate River’s birthday. And we still do stuff for them. And yeah, something we were talking about a little bit before this that I guess I’ll just do now without any prompting was, um, how this affects like us thinking about our families in the future and like having our own kids.

And something I was thinking about was like, now I’m more aware of it because I have friends who, like, they had babies in their family pass away. Like before they were born. So they don’t really know about it. And it’s just interesting to see the differences and like, again, a lot of people, like when I’ve talked about it, like in public speaking or like done speeches or talked about it with other people, they like don’t think about what you do when like you lose a baby before it’s born.

Like everyone obviously is like worried about the baby and like is really excited when everything goes well. But a lot of people don’t actually like. Think about what happens if, like worst case scenario, the baby doesn’t make it. And so it’s like kind of a little bit comforting to know that I’ve already.

Made it through like a little sliver of it that I kind of know that there’s support and that I know that I can work through it being really hard and like I’m not really scared to have babies. I’m so excited I have them all planned out. I’m working on boy names ’cause I only have girl names picked out so far.

But, I don’t know. I’m not scared. And it’s good to know, again, that like, my mom’s gonna be able to help me, my family’s gonna be able to help me. I’m gonna have support if something happens. And I also know that like, babies are adorable and I want them. Yeah. Um, along with that is like, yes, it’s gonna, it’s scary knowing that it’s a possibility, but like, Along with knowing the possibility is knowing that if I lose a child, then um, my family is there to help me.

They’re there to cry with me, and my mom’s been through it, so I can just like talk to her and then her being a life coach on this is also really comforting to know. So, yeah. All right. We’re gonna let these girls give us their final thoughts, just. On the whole situation here, and they say they know what they wanna say, so here we go.

So I just kind of wanna talk about, ’cause I talked about how it felt then and how I might feel in the future, but right now, like the best way to describe it was I really like organizing my room. And I get in these moods where I just reorganize everything. And while I was reorganizing, so my mom got a little printed picture of when we.

We’re holding, um, Lauren and she had that in this really cute frame, but it like went with our old bedroom and not so much this bedroom and like it was still really important to me and it had this cute little thing that said families. No, it said sisters are forever. ’cause we definitely believe that. I think that it wouldn’t be heaven without our babies.

And I believe that like big time. I think it’s important that we have them. But anyways, so while we were cleaning up, I like saw the frame and it was really cute, but it just didn’t match anymore. Like it just kind of felt really out of. Place. So what I did was I like really carefully took the pictures out and I have this little flip book of my important memories.

And even though it’s not like on display, like I still have it, whenever I feel sad or I’m thinking about them, then I can always look back and have those pictures. Like it’s still important. And I still feel a little sad sometimes, but like, It’s not like as a huge of a thing as it was when I was 10 or 11 or 13.

Like now I’m going like I’m gonna be in my last year of high school and I have had so many other things happen and it’s still like a huge part of my life, but it’s not as like crushing. It’s like something I have gotten over and something I have. Accepted and not something I have to work on accepting.

And that’s a really nice feeling to have, knowing that like I finally got to the point where I’ve accepted it and I’m happy how I feel about it. And like we went. My mom was like helping out someone else or I can’t remember why we like went up north and did this whole like little workshop thingy and we, for like kids who had lost babies and like when we did it, it wasn’t too long ago, maybe a year ago.

And I just remember thinking like, this is really nice and really helpful, but I’m emotionally to the point where I don’t need this anymore. Like, I don’t need to draw pictures. I don’t need to like talk about it or make a little sculpture or anything. Like, I’m just like, I’ve accepted that we lost them, but I know that we’re gonna see them again.

And I know they’re still a part of our family. There’s nothing to be ashamed of or scared of when we’re talking to people about it. And I just know they’re going to be our little siblings forever. Yeah. Um, so something I remembered is I am a mess. Like our room is completely messy except for when my sister cleans it up.

And so I have this one drawer that’s just like off reach and it’s my drawer and it’s just full of garbage. Yeah. ’cause I don’t get to clean it. And so it’s really fun to just like, I’ll throw candy in there and just leave it forever and then I’ll be digging through it and find candy. But, Recently actually I was digging through my drawer and I found fuzzy, my little bunny that I got, um, after Lauren died.

And it’s really cool ’cause Fuzzy’s been on my bed for like a month now, I think. And it was really cool to have that. And then also I made a little like figure of Lauren before River died. So I had it also in my drunk junk drawer that I did. I love to surprise myself with what I leave in there, but it was really nice to just like be able to see it again, just like randomly have it.

My siblings brought up, and it’s nice to know that like they’re together and they’re with each other and they’re able to, I don’t know, be there with us, I guess. And yeah.

All right. Thank you for sticking with those girls and listening to them. And I hope my goal with this podcast was not to just put my kids on the podcast, ’cause I actually really like to keep my family pretty private, but. I knew that hearing their perspective and at their different ages and the different things that they’ve been through and what, what’s helped them and the things, just the way that they think hopefully would be really, really helpful for you guys as parents.

And maybe you’re not as far along in this journey as they are, or your kids aren’t as old as they are, and just seeing kind of how it does affect them. A little bit further down the road and as they get older. So I wanna thank them again for being really, really brave and coming on, and I want you guys to know that there’s no right way to do this, and whatever you’ve done with your kids and how you guys deal with it.

There’s no upside to thinking you’re doing it wrong. Just remember you are doing it right and every family is different, and every kid is different. For sure. All my children have dealt with this in different ways. But as a family, I am really grateful that we’ve been able to be really open and work through stuff that does come up.

And it’s interesting to me to just hear how they remember things and how they think about things now, because I have my own perspective too. So it’s always good to just listen to your kids and let them say what they wanna say. And all of it is just perfect, and you are doing a great job as a mom. So if you love this episode, will you share it with a friend who you think it might help?

And if you could leave a rating and a review, that would be awesome too. It only takes a couple of minutes. It’s right there on the podcast player. And don’t forget to subscribe, so you never miss an episode.

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